grave overreactions to SIUC game

[DoctorB]

I don't really get the vicious comments about the game last night. Yes, I watched it, and admit that I missed the first part of the game -- the ugliest part, we had 2 points after 9 minutes, I believe. The TV stat said we were 1 for 15 from the field at that point. What do you expect? We never recovered, though we did get it down to 4 points in the second half.

This game was completely predictable, in fact I told a friend at 6 pm last night that we would lose by 18 or 20. But you better believe it, we need to keep this series alive. This was a good experience, though we lost. I just don't get the highly negative remarks, the very surprised reactions. Our shooting was terrible, and until we shoot better, we will lose to decent teams on the road, period. Yes, they play aggressive, physical defense, but last night so did we; I never felt the reffing was all that bad, to be honest. Certainly not as terrible as 2 years ago, when I was in the building. What is the big shock??

Whenever I need a quick pick-me-up, I point my browser over to billikens.com. Then I realize my little life is not all that bad after all!

[Soderball]

I was there, the officiating was atrocious, the Carbondale people obnoxious.

EDIT: Is it just me, or is SIU arena a dump? I thought they were supposed to remodel/renovate it sometime. We should be crushing these guys every year.

[cheeseman]

I watched the game and I thought some of the charging fouls against us were blocking fouls on them. Those were very important times in the game because they cost us 3 points and the ball. If those fouls are not called that way - even the SIU announcers said that some of those could have gone the other way so I don't feel like I am being unfairly critical of the refs. TL got a technical as did RM on those bad calls - both are uncharacteristic for those two.

I was not surprised at the score. Had we shot even 30% from the field during that 1-15 stretch we would have had the lead at half and then there is a completely different story. I don't want to harp on this but TL and KL have stop coming out cold at the beginning - the freshmen need them to set the tone. 8 of the 13 points KL scored were on foul shots and they came at the end of the second half. I understand that he is being doubled teamed and banged about but he has figure out how to either get free or find the open man. The same could be said for TL.

Barry, how could he have gotten worse? but he did. He is like a fish out of water - did he not learn anything last year about the system? I guess he will just be a warm body who can spell our freshmen if they get into foul trouble this year.

The reason some are so upset after the game - these are ones who predicted a 20 plus win season for us and they see there predictions going down the drain. In the paper, RM even said that he thought progress on defense was made but he seemed to know that this was going to happen. Chill out and let the kids mature during this season.

[jimbofive]

A picture is worth a gazillion hacks.

All night.

[slu72]

I watched the game and I thought some of the charging fouls against us were blocking fouls on them. Those were very important times in the game because they cost us 3 points and the ball. If those fouls are not called that way - even the SIU announcers said that some of those could have gone the other way so I don't feel like I am being unfairly critical of the refs. TL got a technical as did RM on those bad calls - both are uncharacteristic for those two.

I was not surprised at the score. Had we shot even 30% from the field during that 1-15 stretch we would have had the lead at half and then there is a completely different story. I don't want to harp on this but TL and KL have stop coming out cold at the beginning - the freshmen need them to set the tone. 8 of the 13 points KL scored were on foul shots and they came at the end of the second half. I understand that he is being doubled teamed and banged about but he has figure out how to either get free or find the open man. The same could be said for TL.

Barry, how could he have gotten worse? but he did. He is like a fish out of water - did he not learn anything last year about the system? I guess he will just be a warm body who can spell our freshmen if they get into foul trouble this year.

The reason some are so upset after the game - these are ones who predicted a 20 plus win season for us and they see there predictions going down the drain. In the paper, RM even said that he thought progress on defense was made but he seemed to know that this was going to happen. Chill out and let the kids mature during this season.

Cheese, my question is were they good shots we missed, hurried to beat the clock, or just plain bad shots? If they were good open looks, I'm not too concerned because that means the offense is working, ie getting open looks. Face it, we're not a killer shooting team at this point. KL will improve, and hopefully TL's shot returns to Sophomore form somewhere down the line. Also, as kids like KM, Cotto, and KC get more comfortable and experience out there they'll have an impact as well. Now if it's bad shot selection or rushing to get off a clock beater, then the concern is the system. Either they're not getting it or it's not a good one for this team. Which is it, folks?

[Soderball]

Cheese, my question is were they good shots we missed, hurried to beat the clock, or just plain bad shots? If they were good open looks, I'm not too concerned because that means the offense is working, ie getting open looks. Face it, we're not a killer shooting team at this point. KL will improve, and hopefully TL's shot returns to Sophomore form somewhere down the line. Also, as kids like KM, Cotto, and KC get more comfortable and experience out there they'll have an impact as well. Now if it's bad shot selection or rushing to get off a clock beater, then the concern is the system. Either they're not getting it or it's not a good one for this team. Which is it, folks?

BOTH!

[Westy03]

Cheese, my question is were they good shots we missed, hurried to beat the clock, or just plain bad shots? If they were good open looks, I'm not too concerned because that means the offense is working, ie getting open looks. Face it, we're not a killer shooting team at this point. KL will improve, and hopefully TL's shot returns to Sophomore form somewhere down the line. Also, as kids like KM, Cotto, and KC get more comfortable and experience out there they'll have an impact as well. Now if it's bad shot selection or rushing to get off a clock beater, then the concern is the system. Either they're not getting it or it's not a good one for this team. Which is it, folks?

Majority of them were pretty wide open especially in the first half

[ACE]

This team definitely needs a little break in the schedule now. Hopefully the kids can get some confidence and Kevin can heal if there is anything bothering him. Next big test will be DePaul in Vegas - although Liberty could be tough if we are not focused.

[DoctorB]

I think you are right about those predicting 20 wins, personally I was hoping for 15 and I still am.

I got some bad news folks but next year may even be worse. It is plausible that we have not yet bottomed out, since next year the seniors will be long gone. who will be our big scorers then?? That question is open, I have no clue in fact, but I am not losing any sleep worrying about it.

I am willing to wait till these fresh fish are juniors or even seniors--yes, that is what I waid, give RM the full 4 or 5 years. this is how terrible our recruiting has been, basically 2 full years with nothing to show for it till RM showed up. Forget about Top 25, you cannot even break the top 100 with that kind of thin cupboard!!

On a related note, and speaking of truly ravenous fans with ultra-high expectations; how many years should Hoosier fans give to Tom Crean? I saw part of the IU game with Notre Dame and they were very very bad, possibly the worst IU team in my lifetime. I think they beat Chaminade by a thin bucket!! But I like Crean and as a faithful fan, I give him 5 years also.

[billiken_roy]

I was there, the officiating was atrocious, the Carbondale people obnoxious.

EDIT: Is it just me, or is SIU arena a dump? I thought they were supposed to remodel/renovate it sometime. We should be crushing these guys every year.

i agree it is a dump. the bleachers we sat in last night are circa 1955 it seems to me. parking sucks as well. however i liked the price to park. seems like wasted opportunity for a fantastic source of revenue.

that said, no denying it is quite the atmosphere for the home team.

[Westy03]

I think you are right about those predicting 20 wins, personally I was hoping for 15 and I still am.

I got some bad news folks but next year may even be worse. It is plausible that we have not yet bottomed out, since next year the seniors will be long gone. who will be our big scorers then?? That question is open, I have no clue in fact, but I am not losing any sleep worrying about it.

I am willing to wait till these fresh fish are juniors or even seniors--yes, that is what I waid, give RM the full 4 or 5 years. this is how terrible our recruiting has been, basically 2 full years with nothing to show for it till RM showed up. Forget about Top 25, you cannot even break the top 100 with that kind of thin cupboard!!

On a related note, and speaking of truly ravenous fans with ultra-high expectations; how many years should Hoosier fans give to Tom Crean? I saw part of the IU game with Notre Dame and they were very very bad, possibly the worst IU team in my lifetime. I think they beat Chaminade by a thin bucket!! But I like Crean and as a faithful fan, I give him 5 years also.

Doc, I agree. You need to give Rick time as in 4 to 5 years. He came here to build a progam/basketball lifestyle in st. louis not just come in and have a few good season and quick fixes and bolt. He loves the city and school and wants to put it on the map not just for the short term but for the years after he is retired. Rick knows what he is doing and we should be patient. We are playing 7 freshmen with 3 seniors(1 of which is completely worthless), we are going to struggle this year and next, thats what happens when you are in total overhaul mode.

[moytoy12]

I think you are right about those predicting 20 wins, personally I was hoping for 15 and I still am.

I got some bad news folks but next year may even be worse. It is plausible that we have not yet bottomed out, since next year the seniors will be long gone. who will be our big scorers then?? That question is open, I have no clue in fact, but I am not losing any sleep worrying about it.

I am willing to wait till these fresh fish are juniors or even seniors--yes, that is what I waid, give RM the full 4 or 5 years. this is how terrible our recruiting has been, basically 2 full years with nothing to show for it till RM showed up. Forget about Top 25, you cannot even break the top 100 with that kind of thin cupboard!!

On a related note, and speaking of truly ravenous fans with ultra-high expectations; how many years should Hoosier fans give to Tom Crean? I saw part of the IU game with Notre Dame and they were very very bad, possibly the worst IU team in my lifetime. I think they beat Chaminade by a thin bucket!! But I like Crean and as a faithful fan, I give him 5 years also.

You'd give Crean 5 years at IU? I thought expectations might be a little different at IU as opposed to SLU.

I do agree with your thoughts about next year. Who in this class (or next year) can replace what KL and TL do? I hope the Freshman to Sophomore leap makes up the difference, but I'm not confident about that.

[Westy03]

You'd give Crean 5 years at IU? I thought expectations might be a little different at IU as opposed to SLU.

I do agree with your thoughts about next year. Who in this class (or next year) can replace what KL and TL do? I hope the Freshman to Sophomore leap makes up the difference, but I'm not confident about that.

I know Kevin and Tommie are the heart and soul of this years team but they arent exactly setting the world on fire either. I do understand what you are saying though

[billiken_roy]

I don't want to harp on this but TL and KL have stop coming out cold at the beginning - the freshmen need them to set the tone. 8 of the 13 points KL scored were on foul shots and they came at the end of the second half. I understand that he is being doubled teamed and banged about but he has figure out how to either get free or find the open man. The same could be said for TL.

if someone has the solution for lisch and liddell to not get the hell beat out of them, i sure would like to hear it. the answer imo is what conklin, mitchell and maybe cotto, cassity, reed and thompson will be in four years. i just dont see it changing this year. to just say "he has to figure it out" is just not going to happen and isnt fair. they cant make it happen by themselves. you are asking for them to be lebron or larry hughes. they are as good as they get and while that is very good, it isnt good enough to play 2 on 5 successfully against even mediocre teams like siu, nebraska, detroit and kent state. right now i dread dayton and xavier coming to town as they are far better teams than our four losses.

[Tonka]

You'd give Crean 5 years at IU? I thought expectations might be a little different at IU as opposed to SLU.

I do agree with your thoughts about next year. Who in this class (or next year) can replace what KL and TL do? I hope the Freshman to Sophomore leap makes up the difference, but I'm not confident about that.

It's been posted on here a number of times, but something is just not right with Kevin. He seems a step slower than the last couple of years. He is getting major minutes so I am not sure if it is fatigue or what, but the season is still young. Also, Kevin has always had a high basketball IQ and when he defended quicker opponents he always played them smart and worked the angles well. He seems to be getting beat more than he should. Any insight on this would be great.

Maybe he is just in a funk of some sort and just needs to pull himself out of it.

I really do not think Barry is any worse than he was. When has Barry ever played well? I do not mean that as a shot on Barry, but I really believe Barry is playing as Barry. He was a good JUCO player but the transition to D1 has just not worked out for him.

Did anyone notice the move by Brett Thompson in the first half when he drove to the basket. Unfortunately he was called for an offensive foul, but that move showed me the kid can move and once he gets his footwork down he will be a good player.

Someone said Conklin had a stomach virus, so that couldn't have helped his play.

Cassity is getting his shots. He is just not knocking them down. If Kyle can start hitting those shots we will be in better shape. I think in time he will.

[Billiken Rich]

I know Kevin and Tommie are the heart and soul of this years team but they arent exactly setting the world on fire either. I do understand what you are saying though

Everyone thought that Cotto or Mitchell or Cassidy could be the third shooter we needed to free up Kevin and Tommy. We still need a third (or even a second) shooter.

In another thread someone asked about our last lights-out shooter. Claggett and Waldman were pretty good. Cobbin could shoot but didn't have the talent to take over a game.........

Next year could be worse........

[Billiken Rich]

Did anyone notice the move by Brett Thompson in the first half when he drove to the basket. Unfortunately he was called for an offensive foul, but that move showed me the kid can move and once he gets his footwork down he will be a good player.

Someone said Conklin had a stomach virus, so that couldn't have helped his play.

Cassity is getting his shots. He is just not knocking them down. If Kyle can start hitting those shots we will be in better shape. I think in time he will.

Thompsons drive was a better move than I've ever seen out of a Billiken center over 6'5." Harris and Dobbs had better moves but were basically guards........

Having said all that the charge call on Brett was one of the few that the refs got right.......

[satrap]

Next year could be worse........

Who knows? I was very skeptical, and still am, of this team in terms of it's overall composition and potential this year, especially because it is soooo difficult to win on the road in major college bball, especially with young guys.

One of the first eyebrow-raising moments came right after the UMSL game when I was listening to Cusumano the next day and he was RAVING about the freshmen. He was predicting a 4th place finish in the A10 err.... A14. No. Fricking. Way.

[billiken_roy]

Everyone thought that Cotto or Mitchell or Cassidy could be the third shooter we needed to free up Kevin and Tommy. We still need a third (or even a second) shooter.

In another thread someone asked about our last lights-out shooter. Claggett and Waldman were pretty good. Cobbin could shoot but didn't have the talent to take over a game.........

Next year could be worse........

trust me, cotto can shoot it. what is missing is that killer instinct that i saw last year at alton. the supremely confident cold blooded scorer look isnt there anymore. lisch never lost that from one level to the next. of the candidates, cotto is the logical choice imo. but he seems to be a shell of the personality i saw last year.

[Billikan]

trust me, cotto can shoot it. what is missing is that killer instinct that i saw last year at alton. the supremely confident cold blooded scorer look isnt there anymore. lisch never lost that from one level to the next. of the candidates, cotto is the logical choice imo. but he seems to be a shell of the personality i saw last year.

As a guy who shot a lot of three pointers and was normally threw up a lot of them whenever I wanted, I can say that firing at will with a total green light regardless of the situation makes any good shooter look better because there are no real consequences for him or the team if he misses because everyone understands that he is going to shoot all the time. As a freshman who needs to develop the judgment to know a good shot from a bad one-- some in the Neb game were horrible-- Cotto just needs to mature and develop. In the Detroit game he missed a couple of wide open 3s when the game was in the balance. I would bet that he will be much better later in the year as he understands what the staff wants and by the end of next year he will be a real player. He is only in his 6th game in D1 basketball--he will get better.

[moytoy12]

trust me, cotto can shoot it. what is missing is that killer instinct that i saw last year at alton. the supremely confident cold blooded scorer look isnt there anymore. lisch never lost that from one level to the next. of the candidates, cotto is the logical choice imo. but he seems to be a shell of the personality i saw last year.

Was kevin the same in his first month of D-1 ball as he was in the last month of his high school career? I only ask because it took some time for him to seemingly get adjusted (as evidenced by taking a month or so to crack the starting lineup).

[billiken_roy]

As a guy who shot a lot of three pointers and was normally threw up a lot of them whenever I wanted, I can say that firing at will with a total green light regardless of the situation makes any good shooter look better because there are no real consequences for him or the team if he misses because everyone understands that he is going to shoot all the time. As a freshman who needs to develop the judgment to know a good shot from a bad one-- some in the Neb game were horrible-- Cotto just needs to mature and develop. In the Detroit game he missed a couple of wide open 3s when the game was in the balance. I would bet that he will be much better later in the year as he understands what the staff wants and by the end of next year he will be a real player. He is only in his 6th game in D1 basketball--he will get better.

first, your last statement "he will get better" is absolutely the bottom line truth.

that said, to try to translate what your total post said, cotto has become scared/shy possibly because of staff input and limitations? could you clarify your thoughts more kan? thanks.

[courtside]

You'd give Crean 5 years at IU? I thought expectations might be a little different at IU as opposed to SLU.

I do agree with your thoughts about next year. Who in this class (or next year) can replace what KL and TL do? I hope the Freshman to Sophomore leap makes up the difference, but I'm not confident about that.

For informational purposes to your discussion....Crean was given a two year contract extension before the season, his first season, because the situation at Indiana was far worse than anticipated just to keep him. His contract is now 10 years, not including buyout. Crean is already making big inroads in recruiting for Indiana. Indiana is thrilled with him. It'll take him a few years to get it going. But Crean will recruit well, he gets high character kids who graduate and go to class. He has some flaws and weaknesses like anyone else in coaching, but I'd be extremely surprised if he weren't highly successful at Indiana. Indiana was and still is a complete mess of a situation, and Crean is cleaning it up and that'll take years.

[courtside]

I don't really get the vicious comments about the game last night. Yes, I watched it, and admit that I missed the first part of the game -- the ugliest part, we had 2 points after 9 minutes, I believe. The TV stat said we were 1 for 15 from the field at that point. What do you expect? We never recovered, though we did get it down to 4 points in the second half.

This game was completely predictable, in fact I told a friend at 6 pm last night that we would lose by 18 or 20. But you better believe it, we need to keep this series alive. This was a good experience, though we lost. I just don't get the highly negative remarks, the very surprised reactions. Our shooting was terrible, and until we shoot better, we will lose to decent teams on the road, period. Yes, they play aggressive, physical defense, but last night so did we; I never felt the reffing was all that bad, to be honest. Certainly not as terrible as 2 years ago, when I was in the building. What is the big shock??

Whenever I need a quick pick-me-up, I point my browser over to billikens.com. Then I realize my little life is not all that bad after all!

People overreact on message boards to one game. It happens all the time and it will continue to happen.

[moytoy12]

For informational purposes to your discussion....Crean was given a two year contract extension before the season, his first season, because the situation at Indiana was far worse than anticipated just to keep him. His contract is now 10 years, not including buyout. Crean is already making big inroads in recruiting for Indiana. Indiana is thrilled with him. It'll take him a few years to get it going. But Crean will recruit well, he gets high character kids who graduate and go to class. He has some flaws and weaknesses like anyone else in coaching, but I'd be extremely surprised if he weren't highly successful at Indiana. Indiana was and still is a complete mess of a situation, and Crean is cleaning it up and that'll take years.

But at the end of the day, it's still Indiana. Complete mess or not, it would surprise me if it took Crean 5 years to be successful. It would further surprise me if the fans are that patient.

I believe Crean will be successful.